Messianic Judaism.2008.07.14.01

cmp.2008.07.14
ed.2008.07.14.08 (A very rough draft/organization of an email I responded to.)

Should we observe Jewish Traditions and keep the Laws of Moses?

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The Talmud and Mishnah was mostly composed before Jesus even came to earth, weren't they?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah

No. Though, I do concede that some of the traditions that were mentioned in the Mishnah were widely observed during the time of Jesus. However, just because some traditions were followed then, does not necessarily mean that they were passed down from Moses.

I certainly do not have any evidence that some Oral tradition was passed down from Moses and preserved 100%.

According to Judaism, why do Jews believe in tradition?
1. Because Tradition says Tradition is authoritative.
2. Because if they didn't have tradition, they wouldn't know what things in Scripture meant.

If we would admit that we don't know what things mean, we would end up recognizing the prophecies that God would cause a famine where people would not know His Word, (Amos).

But, instead of accepting the possibility that we are far off and need to repent, we claim that we have full knowledge still. But unfortunately, reason says that the evidence of our nearness to God is God being with us. So, we can claim knowledge and intimacy of God all we want, but that doesn't change reality.

"God being with us" is not a subjective truth. It is an objective truth. Even Moses recognized that the presence of God would be apparent to all of the nations when He asked God, "If you do not go with us, how will the nations know that you favor us?"

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And I think Jesus' main argument against some of the oral traditions was that the Pharisees were using them to supersede the actual commands of Torah. A good example of this is your example in Mark 7. I think He was giving a parable, not declaring a new truth. In fact verse 17 says "His disciples asked Him about this parable" before the part you quoted below.

He goes on to talk about man's heart. I don't think He was changing the law, He was making a point about men's hearts. Otherwise He would have been contradicting everything He said earlier in the chapter. You're taking the verses out of context. :)

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You are right, the disciples questioned Jesus about the parable in Mark 7:17. And, in response, Jesus said that food doesn't make a man unclean. This was the interpretation of the parable. The parable came first, and then this explanation came second. So, it seems as though I am not taking it out of context because the interpretation of this "parable" was that food could not make a man unclean.

Yhe phrase, "Purifying all foods", is contextually considered a comment of Mark the Apostle, (the writer). Mark wasn't speaking in a parable. He was providing a "commentary" of sorts. He was saying, "When Jesus said this, He in effect purified all foods, so that food could no longer be considered unclean." It is not a new thought to believe that purification comes through the Word of God.

Remember, the Law of Moses was given to Israel because of the hardness of their hearts, meaning that they were unwilling to obey. So, God gave them "easier" laws to obey. God wanted them to keep their hearts pure by not defiling it with the things that came out. But, they were unwilling. So, God gave them the dietary laws instead to teach them the concept of being defiled in their hearts.

If Jesus was not trying to say that it was not what goes into us that makes us unclean, but what comes out, then what was Jesus really trying to say? If He wasn't really saying what He said, what else could He have possibly meant?

But, I believe Jesus is right. Food does not defiles us, it is what comes out of us that defiles us. Food cannot make us unclean before God.

Again, eating with unclean hands has nothing to do with kosher laws in the Bible.

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Regarding the verse "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean": Now I don't speak Greek, but I don't believe the words 'in saying this, Jesus declared' are even in the text. I think it says something like "purifying all foods".
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http://biblos.com/mark/7-19.htm

If you look at the little horizontal link list, you will see a link that says: Grk/Heb

All you have to do is hover your mouse over the blue Greek words, and it will show you what each word corresponds too. And then, click it. The little pop up definition is different than the definition that they present.

So, if Jesus, as you say, "purified all foods" through what He said, then how could they be considered unclean?

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I think He was referring back to the earlier argument about whether or not ritually washing your hands could make food clean or unclean. None of them were eating ham, after all. They were eating bread.
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Good point. They initially we talking about not washing their hands before eating bread, (which was a custom or tradition and still is). It certainly was not a law of Moses. But, then Jesus made an argument to prove how stupid their tradition was. He said in essence, "No matter what you eat, it won't make you unclean, so what does it matter if don't wash your hands?

Regardless of any of this, the Disciples still ate without washing, and in Acts, Peter still ate with the Greeks.

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If He didn't fulfill Torah perfectly, He could not have been the sacrifice for our sin. And if we're supposed to imitate Him, then why are we changing His Torah when even He didn't do that?
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Jesus said, that if anyone would teach anyone to dismiss any of the laws, they would be condemned. So, even if Jesus were fulfilling the law, and He taught His disciples to break it, then Jesus would be guilty too. So, Jesus wasn't teaching them contrary to what Moses taught. Remember, the disciples even picked grain out of the fields on Shabbat. This was explicitly forbidden in the laws of Moses. And, if Jesus taught them that it was okay, then Jesus would be guilty too...

But Jesus made the argument, "You all have no understanding of the Law of Moses". So then, why are Christians going to Jews to understand the laws of Moses if even Jesus said that the Jews did not understand?

Further, Jesus certainly changed the Torah. It is very evident in Scripture. For example, the major component of the Torah were the laws of the Priesthood, the Temple and the Sacrifices. So, we KNOW that Jesus' life, death, resurrection and priesthood dramatically changed the Torah.

So, it seems that it would be inaccurate to say that Jesus didn't change the Torah. He fulfilled and satisfied all of the obligations within it, and because of that, there is no longer a need to satisfy it still. Isn't this what the Gospel is by definition?

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Maybe Jesus was a Pharisee, or at least trained by them.
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We know Jesus wasn't a Pharisee or taught by them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have asked Him how He knew those things... "Isn't this the carpenter's son?". Remember, He started teaching at 12 and they didn't have a clue how He knew those things then either. He certainly was not a Pharisee. Personally, I think He sided with the Sadducees more. :P But, whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

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Maybe He was so hard on them because of how severely they had misinterpreted the laws away from their original or literal meaning.
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He said that He was hard on them because:
1. They sacrificed obedience to the law in order to observe their "traditions".
2. They were hypocritical in that they neglected incredibly important things in the law, and were nitpicky about little things like washing hands, etc.
3. That they added to the law shutting up the Kingdom of Heaven and ended up making people twice the sons of hell than they were.

The guys don't sound very kosher. Ironically enough, Rabbinical Jews are still guilty of all of these things today.

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It goes without saying that law does not bring salvation. But why do Christians so quickly throw out the original guidelines God gave for living?
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Why do Messianic Jews not study the commandments of Jesus and prefer to study the commandments of Moses and empty traditions of men?

Why do people believe that the Law of Moses was simpler than the Law of Jesus?

Even the Disciples freaked out when Jesus said that even if a man lusted after a woman in his heart, he was committing adultery. Then the Disciples said, how can anyone do this? Then Jesus said that they were right, with men it is impossible... But with God, all things are possible.

In other words, the commandments of Jesus are pretty weighty and must be considered. After all, the Son of God is who proclaimed them.

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Even the foreigner and alien living among them in the camp had to follow the law. The gift we have now is the Holy Spirit living His life through us, and open access to His throne because of His blood.
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1. This law applied to people in Israel and didn't have anything to do with the U.S.
2. Even Jews in Israel who were Christians observed the new covenant and not the old.
3. The Apostles specifically went out of their way in Acts chapt 15 to make sure that it was clear that Gentiles were under no obligation to the Law of Moses.
4. Paul commanded Gentiles not to observe Jewish law. (The entire book of Galatians.)

This are very compelling reasons, very reasonable, and very Biblical of why Gentiles should not put themselves under the yoke of the Mosaic Law.

Now, did either Jesus or the Apostles ever command Gentiles to obey the laws of Moses or Jewish traditions AFTER Jesus rattified the New Covenant?

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Not all traditions are bad - only when they become a burden and a legalistic way of gaining salvation. When a tradition supersedes the actual Torah (like saying unclean hands make clean food unclean), then you have to look carefully at the tradition.
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Even Paul taught "traditions". But, to teach people that Jesus observed "Jewish" traditions like Jews do today is historically inaccurate. It is then inaccurate to claim that by immitating Antichrists, (Jews today), that Christians somehow be more like Jesus. It isn't rational. Why are Christians consulting Antichrist doctrine to learn more about Jesus?

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The Passover service is like many of the other feasts, isn't it? The traditions and guidelines were laid down much later than the original Torah, or even when Jesus Himself celebrated it. I don't think that invalidates them. It's still full of reminders of truth. I think even the things that were supposed to be 'Anti-Christ' have backfired. (For instance, removing Isaiah 53 from the traditional Yom Kippur readings because of fear of the Jews recognizing Jesus was a pretty silly thing to do. To me that just makes it more obvious that He really is the Messiah).
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shalosh_regalim

I am not entirely certain what you are asking... But, there are three major festivals in Judaism, and each is considered a "Shabbat" regardless if it falls on an actual Shabbat or not. For example, if Passover fell on a Thursday night, (15th of Nisan), then Thursday night to Friday night would be considered "Shabbat". And then, Friday night to Saturday night would be considered Shabbat too. This means that two days in a row would be Shabbat. This is why they wanted to get Jesus off of the cross before evening so that He wouldn't be dead and hanging for two days. :(

But, observance of Passover was defined in Exodus and again in Deut. After the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D, Jews began to redefine how Passover was to be celebrated. A whole lot has changed. So, it is apparent that Jesus celebrated it totally different than Jews today.

Just because Jews have changed the way they observe Passover does not mean that the way that Christians were taught how to observe Passover must change. And, Christians were taught to celebrate in the form of communion, as often as we come together, not just one or two times a year.

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So, what do you think? Are you playing devil's advocate? I love talking about this stuff.
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I think that Christians today who presume to teach others to obey the law of Moses and neglect the commands of Jesus are in effect guilty of the same hypocrisy that the Pharisees were: they strain out a gnat and choke on a camel.

Why is it that Christians believe that they are supposed to eat kosher and not give food to every hungry person that asks of them? Why do Christians presume to follow religiously traditional Judaism every day and do not pursue visiting the orphans, the prisoners, the widows, and preaching the gospel every day? These things are SO much more important. Just like Jesus said, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you because you never did these things for me ...".

So, the great commission is to make disciples, baptizing them, and teaching them to obey all of the commandments that Jesus had taught.

Somewhere along the line, people need to be reminded of these things.

http://www.google.com/search?q=commandments+of+Jesus&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1