A Defense for Messianic Judaism

cmp.2009.08.05
ed.2009.08.05.03

There is a strong movement in the Church to uphold the commands of Moses, especially in view of Rabbinical interpretation. I disagree with this. That being said, there are a lot of arguments to support both positions. I am posting the dialogue I had with "K" here to help show both sides of this division in the Church today.

Note: There was a significant portion of this conversation that occured in an instant messaging conversation, but I was not able to save the conversation. Actually, I think it was probably the more substantive part of this conversation, and I regret losing it. I have included a block to describe, (in my words), what was said.


K Said:
-----------
[Personal Info Omitted by e.s.] I have one question though what about when Yeshua said ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth until heaven and earth disappear not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20 I ask this because you say you are messianic and yet you do not believe in the new testament and you say that the Jewish religion is antichrist? I am a little confused on that comment. Yeshua came as a Jew, lived and walked as a Jew, died as a Jew, resurrected as a Jew and will return as a Jew. He wore tsit tsit and celebrated Passover, Shabbat...he kept all Jewish law and did he not say in Matthew 10:38" and anyone who does not take up his cross follow me is not worthy of me." Should we not keep the law as He said to and walk the way He walked. He said He did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it. He also said in John 4:22 "For Salvation is from the Jews."

Shalom,

K


e.s. response:
Wow. I think you misunderstood.

You said:
-------------
Matthew 5:17-20 I ask this because you say you are messianic and yet you do not believe in the new testament

me:
------------------
I totally believe in the new testament, and the old.

You:
-------------
and you say that the Jewish religion is antichrist? I am a little confused on that comment.

Me:
------------
If you ask a Rabbi if they believe that Jesus is the Messiah, they will say no. If you ask them if they believe that they must trust in Him to be saved from destruction, they will say no.

According to the new testament, this by definition is being anti-christ, against Jesus. Heck, they stand up behind pulpits and say they are anti-christs.

You said:
---------------
Yeshua came as a Jew, lived and walked as a Jew, died as a Jew, resurrected as a Jew and will return as a Jew.

Me:
--------------
Careful where you get your "info". According to Scripture, He was a "Hebrew". Though, if He existed before Abraham, He certainly was not Hebrew, but that is a different topic.

Ask a "Rabbi" what a Jew is, and they will say someone that submits to tradition, halakha and the Rabbis, someone born of a Jewish mother. All of this is a "new" definition of Judaism. Jesus was very "Anti-tradition, anti-intelletualism, anti elitism, etc".

You said:
--------------
He wore tsit tsit and celebrated Passover, Shabbat...he kept all Jewish law


Me:
------------
According to the Bible, Jesus broke their traditions, and their view of what the law meant. He worked on Shabbat, Healed on Shabbat, got food from the crops on Shabbat. He said they did not really understand the law, yet he taught people to break the "Pharasaic and Sadducean" perception of the law.

Also, if Jesus wore a four cornered garment, I am sure he did wear tsit tsit. However, there a verse in Scripture where a woman grabbed the "Hem" of his garment, and people twist that into meaning "Tsit Tsit". In other words, I have no clue if he did or not. Nor does it matter.

The law He followed was HIS law that He established before the foundation of the Earth, and that was shadowed after Him. And He did not teach anyone to break that His law, but He taught them to see through Moses' command that was a shadow to see His eternal commandm (Hebrews). And that law will never pass away.

You said:
--------------------
and did he not say in Matthew 10:38" and anyone who does not take up his cross follow me is not worthy of me." Should we not keep the law as He said to and walk the way He walked.

Response:
-------------------
Jesus said that they neglected the weightier matters of the law to uphold their own tradition. Tell me, what is more important, to feed the hungry every day, or keep kosher every day?

So, in this way, we forsake the commandment of God to fulfill our own tradition. Jesus gave a whole lot of new commandments, that were much more difficult to uphold than Moses'. So, instead of studying those people often get distracted studying tradition, and the intellectualism of men.

Me, I prefer to teach people to walk in the way and example of Jesus, and letting the Holy Spirit do the rest. So, when I see someone dedicated to visiting the prisoners, feeding the hungry, taking care of the orphans, the widows, the afflicted and needy in their distress, then I will have found someone upholding the law of Jesus AND the law of Moses.


You said:
-------------------------
He said He did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it. He also said in John 4:22 "For Salvation is from the Jews."


Response:
------------------
Unfortunately, you do not understand the law of Christ. If you did, you wouldn't have asked me all this. I know this is offensive, so I will give you evidence.

They asked Jesus what the greatest commandment IN THE LAW was. Jesus said, to love with all of YOUR Mind, Emotions, and Means.

But then, He gave a new commandment. To love as He Loved Us. This is the greatest commandment, not to love with OUR own abilities, but to love with HIS heart, HIS mind, and HIS abundance. Totally different thing.

And then Paul writes, "Bear each other's burdens and thereby fulfill the Law of Christ.

This is the Law that Moses was patterned after. It is a much GREATER law. It always WAS the law. But, it was because of the hardness of Israel's heart that God gave them the law of Moses, when He wanted them to walk into something nobler and greater. This is why the law of Moses was called a schoolmaster... to teach Israel how to learn to become selfless, to love unconditionally, and to obey the Heavenly law, and not the Earthly.

If the Covenant and Law of Moses was Eternal, then certainly another would not have been given.


K Said:
-----------
My thoughts are is that all you see are men's decisions to do what God commanded again...you do not even see that these men are being led by the Holy Spirit to do this....the same reason I attend a messianic judaism synogogue because God told me to...now you can see it how ever you want but I have had visions and dreams and I am very in tune with the Holy Spirit as I think many people who listen to God are....He will pour out His spirit on mankind young men will see visions and old men will dream dreams....If there is a movement to walk as God commanded thousands years ago why do you see it as only traditions...when I hear it as God's voice and word has not changed ...only the people have not been listening...the things that these people do is because it was commanded by God it doesn't matter when...He didn't change His laws...His laws will never change...



e.s. response:
Okay... You said taht you don't understand... and that is partly because I haven't explained it... So don't jump to any conclusions yet. Please. :)

I didn't say Jesus wasn't Hebrew, nor did I say that Jesus didn't observe the law of Moses to a degree. (He obviously deviated from it quite a bit in the view of the Rabbis).

The point I am making is that Modern Judaism is nothing like Judaism during the time of Jesus.

For example, the Talmud and the Mishnah were compiled 300 years AFTER Jesus died.

One of the things written was that they wanted to get people wearing Tzit Tzit again. They noticed that people weren't wearing four cornered garments anymore, so they had no reason to wear the tzit tzit. Four cornered garments went out of vogue a long long long time ago.

So, they created the Talit Katans and the Tallits so that they could observe this commandment. There was no law to wear four cornered garments. So, they created a tradition to wear four cornered garments SO they could fulfill the law of tzit tzit.

I suppose I could give you a bunch of references for this, but then google will feel depressed... so, have a gander yourself.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=history+of+tallit

The Mishnah and the Talmud were compiled after Jesus' death, to help stop people from converting to Christianity. /Some/ of what is in the Mishneh MAY have been taken from ancient texts, but obviously, the majority of it was new, (since it references modern things).

Also... During Jesus' life, Hebrew was a dead language, (like Latin), spoken by scholars only. Common folks spoke Aramaic, Greek, etc.

Again, if we imitate modern Jews, who imitate Pharisees, who Jesus called a Synagogue of Satan, we certainly will not be imitating Jesus.

The imitation of Jesus comes through obeying His commands and doing what He did.

Research for yourself, the History of Hebrew, History of the Talmud, History of the Mishnah, etc.

I would love to know your thoughts.



K Said:
-----------
Well the scripture also says that in the end times that demons will be able to perform miracles that even the elect will be fooled by and I must tell you that the things I saw the first things I was shown told me they were from God but I know they weren't for many reasons. I do know that God allowed me to see these things to bring me to Him and I did have many visions and dreams that were from God. I think if you have doubts in what people say or share with you then you should pray for discernment. The Lord has blessed me with discernment in these days. Which is the only way I determined which visions and dreams are from God and which are from the enemy. I do not think keeping Shabbat and celebrating God's commanded feasts are traditions. He said forever...I believe what God says. Washing hands He said was a tradition....resting in God and remembering the things He did are not traditions they are sacred days to be thankful for what He does. Tsit Tsit is not a tradition it is to remind men constantly of the Lord's commandments since men struggle more than women. The prayer shaw shows are humbleness before God and closes us off from the world and brings and encircles us with abarrier from the world so we can just be intimate with God.The yamaka also shows humilty and reminds us that there is someone above us. To dress modest is to be mindful of others and help our brothers and sisters from stumbling.There are many deep beautiful meanings behind what you call traditions...which perhaps is all you see but you should study the reasons for these things before castinng judgement and then you will see God's reasoning for commaning those things ans the wisdom that came with it. It is really quite beautiful. None of these thinsg did Yeshua command not to be done. In fact He did them we wore prayer shaws and tsit tsit and celebrated God's commanded holidays and He did observe shabbat....whether or not you want to hear this it is true...ask Him...pray about it....He is right next to you.


e.s. response:

Yes, I understand what you are saying. I have heard so many people tell me of their visions and dreams.

However, Scripture itself warns me to be wary of those who claim these things.

And Jesus Himself commanded me in Scripture not to submit or adhere to the traditions and intellectualism of men.

So, if people are telling me to, then they are telling me to disobey Jesus. I would rather obey what He specifically said rather than be led by someone else's "experience" that encourages them to teach me to disobey.

And no, I am not talking about you.


e.s response:
was going to send this to you earlier, but I forgot... I took it from:

http://disciplesandfishers.blogspot.com/2009/05/mat-153-do-not-forsake-commandment-of.html

but here is a part of it:

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding.

Psalm 146:3
Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind and makes flesh his strength, and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

Matthew 15:3
And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"

2 Corinthians 1:9-10
Indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead; who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He Son whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us.



e.s. response:
"The Lord has blessed me with discernment in these days. Which is the only way I determined which visions and dreams are from God and which are from the enemy."

Modern Christianity has exchanged the term "discernment" for the word "Intuition". Like, people believe that "discernment" is some spiritual gift that allows you to figure out things through "feelings" and "intuition".

In Scripture though, the word is actually the verb of "To Judge" according to Word/Law.

So, if your foundation is this, then I obviously cannot persuade you. Though, even the Mormons are as convinced as you are. And, we are commanded not to rely on our own strength, gifts, understanding, dreams, hearts, etc.

Jesus followed the Shabbat, every day. And He observed Shabbat in a different way than the Jews did. In otherwords, the commandment of Jesus is Eternal--forever. But the way in which His commandments are/were observed changed.

For example, the heavenly, eternal command regarding "cleanliness" had nothing to do with what went inside of you, but what came out, and abstaining from fellowship with non-believers, and those that had fallen away. Israel was too stubborn and rebelious to obey this command, so Moses gave them a simpler one. This happened time and again.

For example: Mark 7:19
For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

Jesus changed the understanding of this law. There are actually morons out there that say what is in parenthesis is not really what Jesus said. (this is totally untrue, and is in all of the Greek/Aramaic manuscripts).

Then again, they claim that the Apostles wrote in Hebrew too, and that Israelis spoke in Hebrew too.

So, you are going to have to pick your standard for truth. Personally, I believe that the Spirit gave us the Scripture we have today, so I will follow His leading. Also, I do not trust my own heart to "know His voice" the way I should. Sometimes I am deceived.

So, perhaps you are more mature than me, and have some awesome revelation that will supercede Scripture. Or, the Spirit that is leading you is deceiving you and encouraging me to disobey the Law of Jesus and to submit to the Law of Moses. It cannot be the case that we are free from the law if we are led by the Spirit but at the same time still required to submit to the law of Moses and the traditions of Rabbis.

Galatians 5:
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
8 This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.

12Those who desire (Y)to make a good showing in the flesh try to (Z)compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they (AA)will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.

But why do Christians teach obedience to the commandments of Moses?

Galatians 6:
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.

According to Paul, it was because he taught people to depart from the Law of Moses that he was persecuted:

Galatians 5:
11 But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Paul even implied that the stumbling block of the cross of Christ was that there was no requirement to submit to bondage under the law of Moses.

But what of the Eternal Law? Scripture very clearly says that Moses gave to Israel a "Pattern" of what He saw in Heaven. And, what was in Heaven was Eternal, but His pattern was a shadow intended to let people know that something like it but better existed, and would replace the shadow at some point.

It is the observance of this eternal law that must be observed. Just like Jesus taught us how to, by keeping every day holy, not defiling ourselves with what comes out of us, etc, etc. There are SO many of His commandments. That is why I started writing those articles anyway:

http://disciplesandfishers.blogspot.com/2008/08/matt-123-call-his-name-immanuel.html

Anyhoo. As I said before, I cannot persuade you from Scripture if your standard for faith is warm fuzzy feelings and what these folks have been teaching you. If you come onto my "Rock", then certainly, I can persuade you.

However, I recommend you study it for yourself. The three books to study this A LOT, is Galatians, Hebrews and then Romans. Over and over again, in that order.

Avoid the "Judiazer" translations that try to force translations into Hebrew, etc. These simply are not correct translations. You can however find Interlinear Greek bibles online or so you can look things up for yourself. Try http://www.biblos.com too for interlinear versions, etc.

The point is, if you want to study this out, I would be more than happy to help you find references. I would prefer that your faith be established on what you find in Scripture, rather than my intellectualism.




K Said:
-----------
If you knew me you would know just how much I do trust in the Lord. If you knew me you would never doubt that.


e.s. response
I know me, and I know that I do not Trust Him.

If I did, His promise would come true. "These signs will follow those that trust, (believe), they WILL cast out demons, raise the dead ..." etc, etc.

The love of God is being perfected in me. And so is my faith. So, I try not to rely to heavily on any claim of mine of super spirituality, trustworthiness, love, etc.

Though, I am growing! :)

So, if I don't trust my own intellectalism, or my own understanding, or my own maturity in Him, how would it be reasonable to trust in someone else's--since He commanded me specifically not to do both?


K Said:
-----------
Do you really think using the word morons to refer to your brothers and sister iis a christian way to think...you see maybe you do not believe in discernment because you think everyone besides you is a moron and they could not possibly be hearing the holy spirit or being lead by it... I am only saying that when God says something that He meant it and doesn't lie...do you think He lies? He said not one word from the law would ever change...that God's law is forever...I kind of take the word forever to mean forever because God said it was forever and God doesn't lie ...that is just me...i do not think it is me who is not reading the scriptures...I think I am reading them very clearly ...why do I think that because I pray on it and ask God to tell me...I believe my Lord is faithful, does not lie and always answers prayers asked in His son name....which is why I know when I ask for discernment I am given it...sounds like you have little faith which is why you do not believe in discernment or that God will answer prayers.



e.s. response:
You said:
------------
Do you really think using the word morons to refer to your brothers and sister iis a christian way to think...

Response:
------------
Actually, what I said was:

"There are actually morons out there that say what is in parenthesis is not really what Jesus said. (this is totally untrue, and is in all of the Greek/Aramaic manuscripts)."

And yes, if people intend to twist Scripture around, to take out, to put in, just to promote their doctrines, then yes, Moron would be a nice word. Jesus used other words, like a "Synagogue of Satan". So, in this sense, I am just quoting Jesus, but being more politically correct.


You Said:
--------------
you see maybe you do not believe in discernment because you think everyone besides you is a moron and they could not possibly be hearing the holy spirit or being lead by it...

Response:
-------------
You are making a lot of assumptions about me. I have no clue why you think that I think everyone is a Moron. :(

So, I will retract "Moron", and say that people who distort and twist scripture to promote the tradition and intellectualism of men, are in fact a Synagogue of Satan. These are Jesus' words, not mine. He rebuked these people, so if you don't like it, take it up with Him.

You said:
------------
I am only saying that when God says something that He meant it and doesn't lie...do you think He lies?

Response:
------------
This is a "Strawman" argument. You are implying that I disagree with this statement in order to prove a point. I do agree that these things are true, and I have no idea why you are implying that I don't.

You Said:
------------
He said not one word from the law would ever change...that God's law is forever...I kind of take the word forever to mean forever because God said it was forever and God doesn't lie ...that is just me...


Response:
------------
Actually, the Bible contradicts you:

Hebrews 7:12
For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

This is actually mentioned over and over again, especially in the O.T. There was a LOT of the "law" that was changed. Or rather, a lot of Moses' law that was obsoleted by the true and Eternal Heavenly law, that existed well before Moses.


You Said:
------------
i do not think it is me who is not reading the scriptures...I think I am reading them very clearly ...

Response:
------------
You have never actually made an argument from Scripture, but from your feeling of discernment, and from other's intellectualism. For example, the claim that Jesus' name back then was "Yeshua", despite the fact that Hebrew was a dead language, and the only names recorded for Him are Iesos in Greek, Ishoa in Aramaic, and Immanuel in Hebrew.


You Said:
------------
sounds like you have little faith which is why you do not believe in discernment or that God will answer prayers.

Response:
------------
You are right that I have little faith, but I am growing. I believe that all faith, (trust rather), must be founded on the Word of God. If God hasn't promised it, then there is no point in hoping for it.

I do not put my faith on my "gifting", "my intellecte", or "feelings", but on the Word and the Power of God. This is a commandment, that you are repeatedly asking me to disobey in order to uphold what you believe are valid "traditions".

If I trust in something that God has not promised, then I am sinning. Because, anything not of faith is SIN.


K Said:
-----------
As I have said before you shouls pray on it...but it was just a suggestion from Yeshua...you have free will.


e.s. response:
You Said:
------------------
As I have said before you shouls pray on it...but it was just a suggestion from Yeshua...you have free will.

Response:
-----------------
Are you suggesting that I should pray about whether or not I should obey the command of Jesus and not forsake the commandment of God for the tradition of Men?

Why would I have to pray in order to obey?

Why do you keep trying to convince me to obey the tradition of men, when I am apparently obeying the commandment of Jesus by forsaking the tradition of men?

Do you see how you appear to be contradicting yourself? On one hand, you are telling me to submit to the traditions and commandments of Rabbis, and on the other you are telling me to disobey Jesus, and HIS eternal law which was existent way before Moses.

How do you justify teaching me to disobey Jesus?



e.s. NOTE
Okay, this is where it get's confusing because I lost the text of the Instant Messaging Conversation. Essentially, this is where substance of our disagreement took place. From what I understood, "K" is arguing that God led them to pursue observance of Jewish laws and traditions through visions and dreams. And that it is valid to establish faith upon these things.

I argued that God would never lead someone to disobey the commandments of Jesus, through visions or otherwise. That Joseph Smith had visions, and many people have contradicting visions. And so, we must use the Word of God as a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path, to discern the validity of our dreams and visions and other "spiritual" experiences.

"K" then claimed to have seen Jesus. And that these experiences were so extraordinary that they couldn't possibly be doubted. I was accused of trying to make them doubt their experiences, and I confirmed this.

I argued that we are often led astray when we lean on our own understanding and experiences. And I argued, that there are ways to validate the "truth" of these experiences according to Scripture. After this conversation, I sent the following message ...


e.s. response:
1 John 3:6
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.



K Said:
-----------
I realy can not continue to have my faith and what God has told me fall under what ever attack you have ...once again I must say that you should pray before you speak...you really are not as informed as you think you are.


e.s. response
I really am sorry for stirring all of this up. I wish I was more mature at this. :(


K Said:
-----------
Yeshua said we should pray all day and I think you talk more than you ask God what to do...I think you have some resentment to your hebrew upbringing and are a very angry person.


e.s. response:
[NOTE: I haven't responded to this yet.]


K Said:
-----------
judge not les thy be judged....you are not Jesus...I know I saw him...I dot care what you think...I hear angels singing and demons cursing...why don't you pray for the Lord to show you what I have been experiencing since he literally walked in picked me up and carried me out of the world I was in...if you have so much faith pray for truth...pray that you can be shown what i have seen...what I was shown...what i was told...go ahead ask...or will you keep on playing jude as if you have the power to.


e.s. response
[NOTE: I haven't responded to this yet.]


K Said:
-----------
If you were more mature I would know you are being led by the Holy spirit since you are not I know it is an attack from the enemy...see discenment...wow pray to God ask for His help in His son's name He answers..who knew...amazing...that is faith...


e.s. response:
K Said:
-----------
If you were more mature I would know you are being led by the Holy spirit since you are not I know it is an attack from the enemy...see discenment...wow pray to God ask for His help in His son's name He answers..who knew...amazing...that is faith...


Response:
--------------
Scripture teaches me to grow in maturity through obedience, AND through dependence on the Body of Christ, (Ps. 119, and Eph. 4; actually, this is in a lot of places).

Discernment in Scripture is not "a gift". But in actualilty is the verb "to differentiate" or to "judge", which both require wisdom.

Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to differentiate/judge good and evil.

If anything is a gift, it would be the "senses" that should be TRAINED in order to judge/differentiate.

And this word "senses" in the Old Testament is translated as "Da'at" which is knowledge or knowing. And so it is that our knowledge should be trained so we can differentiate between good and evil. This kind of discernment IS NOT subjective or based on one particular person's feelings.

Like I mentioned before, I wanted to put this conversation online so that other people can see this dialogue and see why there is division over this topic. I have removed your name, so not to offend you.

Here is the link:

http://disciplesandfishers.blogspot.com/2009/08/defense-for-messianic-judaism.html